Comments on: Religious Zionism, Creativity, and the Future of the Jewish People-by Rabbi Hyim Shafner http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/ Fri, 01 Jun 2012 11:18:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: evanstonjew http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-1056 Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:46:26 +0000 http://morethodoxy.org/?p=485#comment-1056 There is an assumption in this discussion that I think is flawed. The underlying premiss is there are depths in torah, that if only revealed would speak effectively to everyone including secular Jews.I doubt that. I think a better way is to find a spiritual path that speaks to oneself, and then see if it speaks to others. Starting with classical texts in a serious way, and not just as window dressing, is extremly limiting.Why should the thinking of Jews of the third century or the thirteenth hold the key to understanding the world we live in today? Why should apologetics for torah ever work?

]]> By: Apikorus http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-1027 Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:59:50 +0000 http://morethodoxy.org/?p=485#comment-1027 You”ll excuse this comment but passion is what got Rav Elon into trouble in the first place!

]]> By: Hyim Shafner http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-1025 Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:23:36 +0000 http://morethodoxy.org/?p=485#comment-1025 I think that is precisely what the more open wing of religious Zionism can be. In fact Rav Alon was already going there. And I think it will have more learning and more passion to bring to the table than secular yeshivot.

]]> By: Apikorus http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-1022 Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:14:58 +0000 http://morethodoxy.org/?p=485#comment-1022 As for the future, I think your mention of secular yeshivot is important. These Jews are establishing their own ways of studying and being Jewish outside of Orthodoxy and they are the ones that are best able to attract their secular neighbors. Religious Zionism has already lost its capacity to lead mostly due to R. Zvi Yehuda Kook’s false messianism starting after the 6 day war. Morethodox Rabbis(really not sure who they are anyways) will not be a factor as they mostly come from the galut and cannot relate well to the average Israeli and because Morethodoxy(or Open Orthodoxy if you will) will remain a small and relatively insignificant factor as they will not break from Orthodoxy itself(not even in its title!). What Israelis need is a new religious paradigm outside of Orthodoxy that is 1. organic to the modern state of israel -not brought from abroad. 2. recognizes that in Israel religion and state must be separated for the good of klal yisrael and 3. that the existing Orthodox religious establishment(zionist and non-zionist) does not religiously represent the majority of israelis, and must be therefore must be dismantled. Just a few thoughts…

]]> By: Hyim Shafner http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-1021 Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:41:43 +0000 http://morethodoxy.org/?p=485#comment-1021 I do not think anything else will and I think non-religious Jews in Israel are looking for something deep from Judaism with the recent near death of idealistic Kibbutz Zionism. Witness the rise of secular yeshivot of which there are now several.

]]> By: Hyim Shafner http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-1020 Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:39:27 +0000 http://morethodoxy.org/?p=485#comment-1020 You have a good point that their creativity has not really been used to engage secular Jews in Israel. I think there are several reasons for this. 1. They are engaged in keeping the religious Jews in Israel interested in learning. 2. In America almost all Orthodox synagogues are involved in outreach, this is not true in Israel since synagogues are merely places to pray, not communities. One needs communities to engage people not just great creative and open approaches. 3. I think the very creative approaches are fairly new and it is not usually the creative thinkers that want to create organizations to spread their knowledge and approaches especially if they are humble, Rabbi Alon is an exception since he is so charismatic.

Instead of “dising” the people who are creative as Rabbi Gordis has done, one has to leave Baka to find the creativity and then help to spread it. I think if we bring together the amazing, deep and open creativity of the Religious Zionist world with funds and community structures we will engage the nonreligious and change the face of Israel’s religious life. It is no different than in the United States where the majority of outreach organizations are Charedi and do a good job of engaging those that are looking for identity and spiritual passion, but do a bad job of engaging those who are not already looking for something, who already have happy, balanced lives. That is something the more open-minded Orthodox Jews could do well but have not really engaged in except as “Morethodox” synagogues.

]]> By: Hyim Shafner http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-1019 Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:27:08 +0000 http://morethodoxy.org/?p=485#comment-1019 His way of learning and teaching is new. There are no books but he has published articles in some journals and some articles are online. they are all in Hebrew.

]]> By: David S http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-1011 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:31:57 +0000 http://morethodoxy.org/?p=485#comment-1011 Mr. Gordis tends to be a bit negative in general, although thoughtful and many times on the mark. In your final paragraph you predict the future without giving any evidence to suggest that it will in fact occur. Wishful thinking is good, but why are you so sure that this approach (which to my knowledge is not widespread) will soon affect a sea change?

]]> By: Apikorus http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-1010 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:17:24 +0000 http://morethodoxy.org/?p=485#comment-1010 It is nice that Rav Shafner found a rabbi to learn from but he does not address Gordis’ fundamental point which is the lack of creative leadership in the Religious Zionist world. These “leaders” have been failures at showing the Israeli population at large-read secular Jews- the beauty of Jewish learning and Torah. Instead they have hitched their horses to the settlement movement in the West Bank which is doomed to failure. They align themselves with those who live in Dati- only settlements and have not integrated themselves with the non-Dati population. No wonder today’s young israelis find more spirituality in Goa than in Safed. Religio-zionists have succeeded in separating themselves from the secular population and widening the religious/ secular divide- an abject failure of leadership even without Moti Elon and his homosexuality issues.

]]> By: R' Daniel http://morethodoxy.org/2010/03/08/religious-zionism-creativity-and-the-future-of-the-jewish-people-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-1008 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 02:50:20 +0000 http://morethodoxy.org/?p=485#comment-1008 Are any of Rabbi Samet’s shiurim or writings available for purchase?

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