Comments on: Go West Halachik Woman and Man

By: ed

ed — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 04:08:24 +0000

i would like to make a side point here. multiple authors of this website repeatedly use the word ‘halachik.’ the suffix here is a normal english -ic suffix, and the word should therefore be ‘halachic.’ such an enlightened branch of orthodoxy should at least be worldly enough to be able to accurately refer to the legal system they are following.

By: Garnel Ironheart

Garnel Ironheart — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:37:45 +0000

Where’s the boundary line? The minute you give value to secular things independent of Torah you open a can of worms. If we like the Western concept of human rights, then why stop at equal opportunity? Why not progress into discriminatory quotas? Where’s the guide once you leave Torah behind? Your own personal conscience?
In fact, most of the serious human issues of the day can be dealt with from a Torah perspective. However, for many people the answers such a perspective brings clashes with trendy Western liberal thought (which is itself a possible oxymoron). For those people, this conflict becomes very uncomfortable and forces them to choose between being “civilized” and being “religious”. But an observant Jew should not feel that tension. He should recognize that the values du jour of the West are nothing compared to the timeless values of the Torah.

By: Yosef Kanefsky

Yosef Kanefsky — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:57:34 +0000

Hi Garnel
You’ve set up a false dichotemy. The alternatives are not “sticking to the letter of the law” OR “embracing teenage pregnancy and the wanton killing of fetuses”. This is false fear-mongering. Rav Uziel knew this when he argued (against Rav Kook) for women’s suffrage, and Rav Moshe knew this when he argued for communal funds to be used to educate children with special needs (though they might never fully qualify as “obligated in Mitzvot”), and the Knesset knew this when it voted overwhelmingly to admit hundreds of refugees from Darfur who had illegally crossd into Isarel. There is a lot of important ground beyond the letter of the law, and it’s hard to understand how you can simply ignore it out of featthat you are somehow endorsing teenage pregnancy.

It is true that thinking in broader moral terms generates tensions, and that tension is hard to navigate. But what are we left with when we prohibit our religion from delaing with the serious human issues of the day?

By: Josh

Josh — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:58:23 +0000

Great piece, Rabbi. I have enjoyed reading and thinking about every one of your posts so far. I struggle with this particular topic a lot and I wanted to raise an issue:
I feel like whenever a topic like this comes up, we are being slightly disingenuous. For instance, when you talk about tolerance of difference, the Torah certainly makes clear that all difference is not to be tolerated (wayward city, Amalek), and likewise with equality. Gays are not equal, nor are women- not that this is a bad thing, but more that since women and gays cannot be rabbis, Orthodoxy is de facto unequal. It is de facto intolerant. Not frequently, but enough so that to say that we are always tolerant and equal, or that we strive to be, would be just untrue. I wonder if by trying to sweep these ideas under the rug, we are either creating an ideological framework to ultimately ‘right’ these inequalities eventually. And if so, doesn’t this violate the point of orthodoxy?

What is really going on here, I think, is the tension between Western (which is really just a more positive word for secular) morality and Judaism. If we aren’t careful to discern the difference between the two, I feel that some within the left wing of the MO movement will slip into conservative Judaism, and it will be because we were not vigilant enough about drawing clear lines in our philosophy.

By: Garnel Ironheart

Garnel Ironheart — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:16:33 +0000

Ah yes, the old rallying cry of the non-Orthodox: well maybe we don’t keep kosher, and maybe we go shopping on Shabbos, and maybe we don’t even know what taharas mishpachah is, but goshdarnit, we’re honest and moral and isn’t that more important?

Western values? Please, like affirmative action which demands quotes favouring disadvantaged groups, political correctness which permits reverse racism and sexism against supposedly advantaged groups, and a sexual culture that celebrates teenage pregnancies and the wanton killing of fetuses?

I’ll stick with staying within the letter of the law if this is the alternative.