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	<title>Comments on: Changing Attitudes-Engaging Intermarried Jews and Their Families &#8211;  By Rabbi Hyim Shafner</title>
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	<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/</link>
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		<title>By: Pierre</title>
		<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-876</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pierre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morethodoxy.org/?p=113#comment-876</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Only if your case was that R. Tropper has issues. The various projects of EJF *had the support of many gedolim* (granted, we&#039;ve long been without &#039;gedolim&#039; by Rambam&#039;s definition);

http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2009/12/eternal-jewish-con-of-leib-tropper.html

Somewhere among them would be those you yourself find authorative who were willing to have their faces and names associated with EJF. His outreach to intermarried familes, among other efforts, aside - no wait, before I forget; opposing such outreach - which again is engaged in by Aish HaTorah branches, Ohr Somayach, Chabad, and the great number of Kiruv groups - would include alienating the CHILDREN of Jewish women who are intermarried, WHO ARE JEWISH from Torah (which Zohar claims to speak on behalf of) - Jewish neshamot which it seems you&#039;d prefer to cast out to be raised by the Nations - in contradiction to the stated support by Charedi and Modern poskim in support of outreach to MORE than single Jews or Jewish couples (a &#039;casting out&#039; in contradiction to Torah law). 

Anyways, regardless of the financial improprieties and personal infractions under Troppers &#039;leadership&#039;, Tropper had encouraged STRINGENCY regarding conversions, even ones where non-Jewish women married to Jewish men were converted (and their children...nebach....sent to YESHIVA, R&quot;L).

Your case doesn&#039;t seem to be a legal (halachic) one; You didn&#039;t present legal statue. Zohar (the only textual evidence you&#039;ve presented), never went before the Sanhedrin - the last universal legal body that could canonize such legal texts. If you prefer to uphold Zohar over halacha, fine. Just don&#039;t consider yourself a defender of Yahadut or Torah from which it derives - a Torah given to ALL ISRAEL at Sinai, not secretly in a conglomerate (even by voices within our tradition), text redacted long after we were in Galut.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only if your case was that R. Tropper has issues. The various projects of EJF *had the support of many gedolim* (granted, we&#8217;ve long been without &#8216;gedolim&#8217; by Rambam&#8217;s definition);</p>
<p><a href="http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2009/12/eternal-jewish-con-of-leib-tropper.html" rel="nofollow">http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2009/12/eternal-jewish-con-of-leib-tropper.html</a></p>
<p>Somewhere among them would be those you yourself find authorative who were willing to have their faces and names associated with EJF. His outreach to intermarried familes, among other efforts, aside &#8211; no wait, before I forget; opposing such outreach &#8211; which again is engaged in by Aish HaTorah branches, Ohr Somayach, Chabad, and the great number of Kiruv groups &#8211; would include alienating the CHILDREN of Jewish women who are intermarried, WHO ARE JEWISH from Torah (which Zohar claims to speak on behalf of) &#8211; Jewish neshamot which it seems you&#8217;d prefer to cast out to be raised by the Nations &#8211; in contradiction to the stated support by Charedi and Modern poskim in support of outreach to MORE than single Jews or Jewish couples (a &#8216;casting out&#8217; in contradiction to Torah law). </p>
<p>Anyways, regardless of the financial improprieties and personal infractions under Troppers &#8216;leadership&#8217;, Tropper had encouraged STRINGENCY regarding conversions, even ones where non-Jewish women married to Jewish men were converted (and their children&#8230;nebach&#8230;.sent to YESHIVA, R&#8221;L).</p>
<p>Your case doesn&#8217;t seem to be a legal (halachic) one; You didn&#8217;t present legal statue. Zohar (the only textual evidence you&#8217;ve presented), never went before the Sanhedrin &#8211; the last universal legal body that could canonize such legal texts. If you prefer to uphold Zohar over halacha, fine. Just don&#8217;t consider yourself a defender of Yahadut or Torah from which it derives &#8211; a Torah given to ALL ISRAEL at Sinai, not secretly in a conglomerate (even by voices within our tradition), text redacted long after we were in Galut.</p>
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		<title>By: Pierre</title>
		<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-875</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pierre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morethodoxy.org/?p=113#comment-875</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Only if your case was that R. Tropper has issues. The various projects of EJF *had the support of many gedolim* (granted, we&#039;ve long been without &#039;gedolim&#039; by Rambam&#039;s definition);

http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2009/12/eternal-jewish-con-of-leib-tropper.html

Somewhere among them would be those you yourself find authorative who were willing to have their faces and names associated with EJF. His outreach to intermarried familes, among other efforts, aside - no wait, before I forget; opposing such outreach - which again is engaged in by Aish HaTorah branches, Ohr Somayach, Chabad, and the great number of Kiruv groups - would include alienating the CHILDREN of Jewish women who are intermarried, WHO ARE JEWISH from Torah (which Zohar claims to speak on behalf of) - Jewish neshamot which it seems you&#039;d prefer to cast out to be raised by the Nations - in contradiction to the stated support by Charedi and Modern poskim in support of outreach to MORE than single Jews or Jewish couples (a &#039;casting out&#039; in contradiction to Torah law). 

Anyways, regardless of the financial improprieties and personal infractions under Troppers &#039;leadership&#039;, Tropper had encouraged STRINGENCY regarding conversions, even ones where non-Jewish women married to Jewish men were converted (and their children...nebach....sent to YESHIVA, R&quot;L).

Your case doesn&#039;t seem to be a legal (halachic) one; You didn&#039;t present legal statue. Zohar (the only textual evidence you&#039;ve presented), never went before the Sanhedrin - the last universal legal body that could canonize such legal texts. If you prefer to uphold Zohar of halacha, fine. Just don&#039;t consider yourself a defender of Yahadut or Torah from which it derives - a Torah given to ALL ISRAEL at Sinai, not secretly in a conglomerate (even by voices within our tradition), text redacted long after we were in Galut.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only if your case was that R. Tropper has issues. The various projects of EJF *had the support of many gedolim* (granted, we&#8217;ve long been without &#8216;gedolim&#8217; by Rambam&#8217;s definition);</p>
<p><a href="http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2009/12/eternal-jewish-con-of-leib-tropper.html" rel="nofollow">http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2009/12/eternal-jewish-con-of-leib-tropper.html</a></p>
<p>Somewhere among them would be those you yourself find authorative who were willing to have their faces and names associated with EJF. His outreach to intermarried familes, among other efforts, aside &#8211; no wait, before I forget; opposing such outreach &#8211; which again is engaged in by Aish HaTorah branches, Ohr Somayach, Chabad, and the great number of Kiruv groups &#8211; would include alienating the CHILDREN of Jewish women who are intermarried, WHO ARE JEWISH from Torah (which Zohar claims to speak on behalf of) &#8211; Jewish neshamot which it seems you&#8217;d prefer to cast out to be raised by the Nations &#8211; in contradiction to the stated support by Charedi and Modern poskim in support of outreach to MORE than single Jews or Jewish couples (a &#8216;casting out&#8217; in contradiction to Torah law). </p>
<p>Anyways, regardless of the financial improprieties and personal infractions under Troppers &#8216;leadership&#8217;, Tropper had encouraged STRINGENCY regarding conversions, even ones where non-Jewish women married to Jewish men were converted (and their children&#8230;nebach&#8230;.sent to YESHIVA, R&#8221;L).</p>
<p>Your case doesn&#8217;t seem to be a legal (halachic) one; You didn&#8217;t present legal statue. Zohar (the only textual evidence you&#8217;ve presented), never went before the Sanhedrin &#8211; the last universal legal body that could canonize such legal texts. If you prefer to uphold Zohar of halacha, fine. Just don&#8217;t consider yourself a defender of Yahadut or Torah from which it derives &#8211; a Torah given to ALL ISRAEL at Sinai, not secretly in a conglomerate (even by voices within our tradition), text redacted long after we were in Galut.</p>
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		<title>By: Yosef Yesod</title>
		<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-863</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Yosef Yesod]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morethodoxy.org/?p=113#comment-863</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think in light of the EJF scandal brewing i rest my case kol hayotzeh minhatuma - tuma]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think in light of the EJF scandal brewing i rest my case kol hayotzeh minhatuma &#8211; tuma</p>
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		<title>By: Pierre</title>
		<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-760</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pierre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morethodoxy.org/?p=113#comment-760</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yosef Yesod; The Zohar is not clear about anything - even itself. This case you rest makes no sense; people AGAINST outreach that is inclusive of intermarried couples are also completely capable of seeing Schindler&#039;s List, looking at a Kallah at a wedding or having a completely normal human thought that no one can reasonably proclaim assur (unless you obsess on it or act on it).

Or people who otherwise oppose films, etc, can approve of outreach inclusive of intermarrieds - such as The approach of the otherwise-questionable Eternal Jewish Family international specifically appeals itself to intermarried couples who have an interest in becoming &quot;thoroughly&quot; Jewish...which is to say virtually any intermarried couple we could be discussing here. In fact, I don&#039;t know an kiruv project that has turned someone away because they&#039;re intermarried...the person/couple is asking about TORAH! We should alienate them based on Zohar by comparison?...I can&#039;t even count the number of such couples I have known over my few years in Torah -couples who become observant and bound to communities with children now getting married and raising their own &quot;spiritually tuned in&quot; Jewish families. They could never have known what they could not have seen; obviously rabbis and/or laypeople opened themselves to them. Otherwise they indeed would have been lost to Judaism, which would seem to be your preference. Pasul everyone al pi Zohar, let G-d sort them out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yosef Yesod; The Zohar is not clear about anything &#8211; even itself. This case you rest makes no sense; people AGAINST outreach that is inclusive of intermarried couples are also completely capable of seeing Schindler&#8217;s List, looking at a Kallah at a wedding or having a completely normal human thought that no one can reasonably proclaim assur (unless you obsess on it or act on it).</p>
<p>Or people who otherwise oppose films, etc, can approve of outreach inclusive of intermarrieds &#8211; such as The approach of the otherwise-questionable Eternal Jewish Family international specifically appeals itself to intermarried couples who have an interest in becoming &#8220;thoroughly&#8221; Jewish&#8230;which is to say virtually any intermarried couple we could be discussing here. In fact, I don&#8217;t know an kiruv project that has turned someone away because they&#8217;re intermarried&#8230;the person/couple is asking about TORAH! We should alienate them based on Zohar by comparison?&#8230;I can&#8217;t even count the number of such couples I have known over my few years in Torah -couples who become observant and bound to communities with children now getting married and raising their own &#8220;spiritually tuned in&#8221; Jewish families. They could never have known what they could not have seen; obviously rabbis and/or laypeople opened themselves to them. Otherwise they indeed would have been lost to Judaism, which would seem to be your preference. Pasul everyone al pi Zohar, let G-d sort them out.</p>
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		<title>By: Yosef Yesod</title>
		<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-757</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Yosef Yesod]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:38:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morethodoxy.org/?p=113#comment-757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The zohar is clear that having relations with a non jew is one of the 3 sins that drives away the &quot;shechina&quot;
the intermarried couple have an inherent tumah that is attached to them, which is visible to those who are spiritually tuned in.
I ask those who are advocating their inclusion to be really honest and ask how pure are you in maintaing kedushat  habrit  ie. do you watch movies, look at other women or have  non kosher sexual thoughts...mmm, i rest my case]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The zohar is clear that having relations with a non jew is one of the 3 sins that drives away the &#8220;shechina&#8221;<br />
the intermarried couple have an inherent tumah that is attached to them, which is visible to those who are spiritually tuned in.<br />
I ask those who are advocating their inclusion to be really honest and ask how pure are you in maintaing kedushat  habrit  ie. do you watch movies, look at other women or have  non kosher sexual thoughts&#8230;mmm, i rest my case</p>
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		<title>By: Hyim Shafner</title>
		<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hyim Shafner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 04:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morethodoxy.org/?p=113#comment-133</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amy
I agree that there are many different strengths one can learn from all takes on Judaism and utilize in one&#039;s avodat Hashem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amy<br />
I agree that there are many different strengths one can learn from all takes on Judaism and utilize in one&#8217;s avodat Hashem.</p>
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		<title>By: pierre</title>
		<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pierre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morethodoxy.org/?p=113#comment-124</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[More than &#039;reaching&#039; single gerim - who to be completely honest are as mixed a bag as you can imagine for people who *want* to be jewish (often older singles already) - we need to switch the policy and specifically angle to intermarried couples; certain of the REALLY &quot;tough&quot; parts of becoming religious/Jewish are taken care of; the zivug is already there, whom are compatible one with another, often settled in careers and often already have children, they often already share the inclinations that lend themselves to finding a shared approach in judaism...obviously not everything is a great fit, but giving such people *opportunity* with Judaism is not taking them to mikvah overnight! And would make more sense, to me, and seem more justifiable than the mamash OUTREACH that occurs when a non-Jew shows the SLIGHTEST interest in Judaism in the major Jewish city I&#039;m from.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More than &#8216;reaching&#8217; single gerim &#8211; who to be completely honest are as mixed a bag as you can imagine for people who *want* to be jewish (often older singles already) &#8211; we need to switch the policy and specifically angle to intermarried couples; certain of the REALLY &#8220;tough&#8221; parts of becoming religious/Jewish are taken care of; the zivug is already there, whom are compatible one with another, often settled in careers and often already have children, they often already share the inclinations that lend themselves to finding a shared approach in judaism&#8230;obviously not everything is a great fit, but giving such people *opportunity* with Judaism is not taking them to mikvah overnight! And would make more sense, to me, and seem more justifiable than the mamash OUTREACH that occurs when a non-Jew shows the SLIGHTEST interest in Judaism in the major Jewish city I&#8217;m from.</p>
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		<title>By: Hyim Shafner</title>
		<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-117</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hyim Shafner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morethodoxy.org/?p=113#comment-117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sarah
In my shul as I imagine in most Orthodox shuls, we don&#039;t pretend that the spouse or children are halcically Jewish if they are not.  A non-Jewish husband is not counted in the  minyan nor would non-Jewish children be.  I find that if people are welcomed into an Orthodox community; if they stay it means they are interested in observance and over time choose to convert.   Your question also brings up a giant issue Rabbis face today when both parents are Jewish and they adopt a baby.  If the parents are not fully observant, though Rav Moshe would have permitted the child to be converted, most Batey Din (Jewish courts) of recent will not permit conversion of the child.  Until this changes it is going to be very hard for families that want to daven in Orthodox shuls and have adopted children when Bar Mitzvah times come.  This is a not uncommon problem that Rabbis of very welcoming shuls face and I and the other Morethodoxy bloggers and other Rabbis in the US and Israel are trying to create solutions for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah<br />
In my shul as I imagine in most Orthodox shuls, we don&#8217;t pretend that the spouse or children are halcically Jewish if they are not.  A non-Jewish husband is not counted in the  minyan nor would non-Jewish children be.  I find that if people are welcomed into an Orthodox community; if they stay it means they are interested in observance and over time choose to convert.   Your question also brings up a giant issue Rabbis face today when both parents are Jewish and they adopt a baby.  If the parents are not fully observant, though Rav Moshe would have permitted the child to be converted, most Batey Din (Jewish courts) of recent will not permit conversion of the child.  Until this changes it is going to be very hard for families that want to daven in Orthodox shuls and have adopted children when Bar Mitzvah times come.  This is a not uncommon problem that Rabbis of very welcoming shuls face and I and the other Morethodoxy bloggers and other Rabbis in the US and Israel are trying to create solutions for.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-115</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sarah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morethodoxy.org/?p=113#comment-115</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sounds nice in theory, but what are you going to do about all the children of intermarriages, in cases where the wife is not Jewish, who grow up thinking they are full members of an Orthodox shul? At some point they will try to go to a yeshiva or get married outside of your shul.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds nice in theory, but what are you going to do about all the children of intermarriages, in cases where the wife is not Jewish, who grow up thinking they are full members of an Orthodox shul? At some point they will try to go to a yeshiva or get married outside of your shul.</p>
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		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/19/changing-attitudes-engaging-intermarried-jews-and-their-families-by-rabbi-hyim-shafner/#comment-114</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Amy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 03:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morethodoxy.org/?p=113#comment-114</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What most resonates with me in your post is your discussion of a unified and diverse Jewish people. I have not found a comfortable place for myself within any Jewish movement or community primarily because even within myself I am torn between how I prioritize different Jewish values. Recently studying more about the relationship between Moshe and Yitro I was again reminded that our people has never been homogenous - and baruch HaShem for that! So for now I study with an Orthodox woman, I teach and work in a Reform synagogue, and I feel most at home davening in a Conservative (Conservadox/Egalitarian they self-identify) shul. Furthermore, I work with youth and I believe (if we speak of teens) we underestimate them if we think our only choices are single-message or conflicting messages. Most of them are capable of understanding nuance - after all, they are among a people who wrestles and grapples. Thank you for your words.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What most resonates with me in your post is your discussion of a unified and diverse Jewish people. I have not found a comfortable place for myself within any Jewish movement or community primarily because even within myself I am torn between how I prioritize different Jewish values. Recently studying more about the relationship between Moshe and Yitro I was again reminded that our people has never been homogenous &#8211; and baruch HaShem for that! So for now I study with an Orthodox woman, I teach and work in a Reform synagogue, and I feel most at home davening in a Conservative (Conservadox/Egalitarian they self-identify) shul. Furthermore, I work with youth and I believe (if we speak of teens) we underestimate them if we think our only choices are single-message or conflicting messages. Most of them are capable of understanding nuance &#8211; after all, they are among a people who wrestles and grapples. Thank you for your words.</p>
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